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A response to Bill Ivy's Defense of the Message: Difference between revisions
A response to Bill Ivy's Defense of the Message (view source)
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=Our response to Bill Ivy= | =Our response to Bill Ivy= | ||
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Bill Ivy is the pastor of Living Word Tabernacle, a message church in Gibson, Missouri. | Bill Ivy is the pastor of Living Word Tabernacle, a message church in Gibson, Missouri. | ||
On December 24, 2019, he posted an article on the website of Living Word Tabernacle which we strongly disagree with. | On December 24, 2019, he posted an article on the website of Living Word Tabernacle which we strongly disagree with. While his post does contain something we would agree with, we want to be clear about our main points of disagreement. | ||
==A question for Bill Ivy== | |||
We were believers of the message for decades. We eagerly received the message that was brought to us by message followers. We listened to the tapes. We were the first ones to digitize the sermons and post them online. We were also part of the team that originated the initial textual search technology for the message. We believed the message with our whole hearts. | |||
However, we discovered that the pastor of our church, the largest message church in North America at the time, had covered up the sexual abuse of a minor. What disturbed us further was the fact that the many message ministers we knew failed to stand for righteousness. Some of them, like Tim Pruitt and Jason Watkins, sided with our pastor, even though they did not know the facts. Others, like Donny Reagan and Ron Peterson, acknowledged that what our pastor did was wrong. But they refused to say anything publicly. They ignored the issue. They ignored our church. And they ignored the victim. They refused to stand for the truth. They screamed against sin and the wrongs of the Roman Catholic church, but they did the same things as those they railed against. | |||
We were confronted with two questions: | |||
#Had ministers of the message perverted William Branham's teaching? OR | |||
#Was there a fundamental problem with the message itself? | |||
We believed the message and we '''WANTED IT TO BE TRUE.''' But '''like the Bereans we needed to DETERMINE IF THE MESSAGE WAS TRUE.''' | |||
So we started researching the message to prove that it was true. This would mean that the ministers of the message were the ones with the problem. Bro. Branham would be proved to be the prophet we thought him to be and his message would be our guiding light. | |||
But as we started to verify the prophecies with facts we encountered problems. After being unable to confirm the facts surrounding [[The Municipal Bridge Vision|the Municipal Bridge]] vision, George Smith told us that no one had died in the construction of the bridge. There weren't just a few problems, there were [[List of Issues with the Message|dozens and dozens of them]]. | |||
The words of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 constantly confronted us: | |||
:''But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.<ref>The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Dt 18:20–22.</ref> | |||
So we would ask Bill Ivy a simple question - What do we do with the problems in the message? | |||
Should we ignore the plain reading of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 if we discover a significant problem? What if we discover dozens of problems? | |||
'''If Bill Ivy denies there are problems, we would ask him to click on the issues below and respond publicly to the questions we have asked''' (these questions have been on this website for over 7 years without a single message minister contacting us with an answer AND we have stated publicly we would change anything that anyone could prove to be incorrect): | |||
#[[The Municipal Bridge Vision|Why did William Branham say that the municipal bridge vision was fulfilled when it clearly wasn't?]] '''(Is this a failed prophecy?)''' | |||
#[[The Brown Bear Vision|Why did William Branham say "Thus Saith The Lord" that he would shoot a large brown bear, when he didn't?]] '''(Is this a failed prophecy?)''' | |||
#[[The Vision of the Meetings in South Africa|Why did the vision that William Branham had of the meetings in south Africa fail to be fulfilled?]] '''(Is this a failed prophecy?)''' | |||
##[[Franklin D. Roosevelt|Why did William Branham prophecy that America would start World War 2?]] '''(Is this a failed prophecy?)''' | |||
#[[Did William Branham visit the graves of Muhammad, Buddha, and Confucius?]] . '''Did William Branham lie?''' | |||
#Did William Branham visit the Vatican and see the inscription "''[[VICARIVS FILII DEI]]''" above the throne of the Pope? '''Did William Branham lie?''' | |||
#Did William Branham see [[Stories about Eagles|a mother eagle carry her babies on her wings?]] . '''Did William Branham lie?''' | |||
#[[The Cloud|Why did William Branham say that he was under the cloud when they took its picture, when he clearly wasn't?]] . '''Did William Branham lie?''' | |||
#[[Marriage and Divorce|William Branham believed that if a wife cuts her hair, her husband can divorce her. Does the Bible teach this?]] '''Did William Branham teach something that is not scriptural?''' | |||
#[[Prophets that ministered at the same time|Why did William Branham say that 2 major prophets were never on the scene at the same time when '''the Bible doesn't teach that?''']] | |||
These are only a few of the questions that we asked... To see the full list, [[List of Issues with the Message|click here]]. | |||
We have tried to behave like the Bereans and we are respectfully requesting that Bill Ivy do the same. Bro. Bill, if you believe that we are incorrect in our conclusions, please [[Contact information|''email us'']] and let us know why. We will promptly change anything on this website that can be proved to be incorrect. | |||
==Does the Bible REQUIRE us to defend our faith?== | ==Does the Bible REQUIRE us to defend our faith?== | ||
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Sadly, Pastor Ivy does not take the approach given to us in scripture. This is similar to virtually all message ministers today. They say that the message can defend itself and then provide no answers to the questions raised by sincere message followers ([[List of Issues with the Message|such as the questions we had when we were in the message]]). | Sadly, Pastor Ivy does not take the approach given to us in scripture. This is similar to virtually all message ministers today. They say that the message can defend itself and then provide no answers to the questions raised by sincere message followers ([[List of Issues with the Message|such as the questions we had when we were in the message]]). | ||
==Receiving the word with all readiness of mind== | ===Receiving the word with all readiness of mind=== | ||
In Acts 17:11, we read: | In Acts 17:11, we read: | ||
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They heard the Gospel and it sounded good. They were EAGER to believe, they wanted to believe BUT they first they asked the tough questions by searching the scriptures to '''SEE IF WHAT WAS BEING TAUGHT WAS TRUE'''. | They heard the Gospel and it sounded good. They were EAGER to believe, they wanted to believe BUT they first they asked the tough questions by searching the scriptures to '''SEE IF WHAT WAS BEING TAUGHT WAS TRUE'''. | ||
Also note the order of what happened: | |||
#The Bereans heard the word eagerly. It sounded good and they wanted to believe it. | |||
#The searched the scriptures to see IF what was being taught was true. They would have rejected if it was not. | |||
#'''''THEREFORE''' MANY OF THEM BELIEVED. They believed AS A RESULT of their research because it proved that what Paul was teaching was backed up by scripture. | |||
Bill Ivy clearly states that there is a requirement to examine what is heard to make sure it aligns with Scripture '''BUT there is NO discussion about how to behave when it DOESN'T.''' | Bill Ivy clearly states that there is a requirement to examine what is heard to make sure it aligns with Scripture '''BUT there is NO discussion about how to behave when it DOESN'T.''' | ||
Disagreement on doctrinal issues is not the point. | Disagreement on doctrinal issues is not the point. What are we to do when we come across something that does not align with Scripture? | ||
We are to '''WITHDRAW OURSELVES''' from the teaching which would take us further from Christ as Paul states: | |||
:''If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.<ref>The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 6:3–5.</ref> | |||
==The concept of "church ages"== | |||
Bill Ivy states: | |||
:''I believe that God give us a one man ministry, it was a one man ministry to the “AGE”. None other possesses that, he was the last church age Messenger and the Seventh Angel according to scripture (Rev 3:14, 10:1-7). | |||
Bill Ivy is stating his belief in the concept of "church ages", but this term never appears in Scripture. | |||
William Branham did not come up with the idea that there were "seven church ages." | |||
Some early dispensationalists (such as [[Plagiarism#Clarence Larkin|Clarence Larkin]] from whom William Branham copied the idea, including the dates of the ages) interpreted the seven churches of Asia (Rev. 1:4) symbolically as seven “church ages,” or stages of church history, though few hold this view today outside of [[The Message|the message]]. For the following reasons, this line of interpretation is no more feasible than allegorizing the churches addressed in Paul’s letters: | |||
#There is '''no reference''' in the book of Revelation that would suggest that the seven churches are seven church ages. The Bible does not use the word "age" or "ages." This is a construct of early dispensationalists which William Branham copied. | |||
#Abundant evidence suggests that Revelation addresses seven literal church communities, including items of local color that fit each of the seven letters (see [[Seven Churches In Asia]]). | |||
#A map shows that Revelation addresses the seven churches in the very sequence that a messenger from John, arriving first in Ephesus near the sea, would travel to each of the cities listed, presumably along the main roads of Asia. The average distance between each city was about thirty to forty-five miles. | |||
#Only a forced reading of church history (regularly revised with the passing of time) has allowed this interpretation. | |||
#Finally, if Revelation requires the completion of seven church ages before Jesus’ return, then, in most centuries of church history, Christians had no right to expect the imminent return of the Lord! This would be a curious conclusion for advocates of the seven church ages view, most of whom vehemently emphasize the imminence of Christ’s return.<ref>Craig S. Keener, Revelation, The NIV Application Commentary, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1999), 74–75.</ref> | |||
The burden of proof is clearly upon William Branham and Bill Ivy to show that these local letters are successive "ages" or "eras". | |||
One "proof" that we often hear is this - "Simply look around at churches today, they clearly demonstrate that we are in the age of Laodicea." While this sounds like a good argument, as there are many lukewarm churches in North America, it fails to deal with the global church today. There are currently 245 million Christians who are being persecuted for their faith. Their churches reflect NONE of the characteristics of Laodicea.<ref>https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/stories/christian-persecution-by-the-numbers/</ref> | |||
=What are we defending? By Bill Ivy= | =''What are we defending?'' By Bill Ivy= | ||
We all want to defend what we believe! From one extreme to the other we can find a reason. We have our scriptures, we can find quotes to shut the mouth of those that oppose us. Where does it end, who is right, and who is wrong? | We all want to defend what we believe! From one extreme to the other we can find a reason. We have our scriptures, we can find quotes to shut the mouth of those that oppose us. Where does it end, who is right, and who is wrong? | ||