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A response to Bill Ivy's Defense of the Message: Difference between revisions

A response to Bill Ivy's Defense of the Message (view source)

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Bill Ivy is the pastor of Living Word Tabernacle, a message church in Gibson, Missouri.
Bill Ivy is the pastor of Living Word Tabernacle, a message church in Gibson, Missouri.


 
On December 24, 2019, he posted an article on the website of Living Word Tabernacle which we strongly disagree with.  The following outlines our main points of disagreement.
 
 
 
Pastor Ivy makes a number of comments which we disagree with.


==Does the Bible REQUIRE us to defend our faith?==
==Does the Bible REQUIRE us to defend our faith?==


Bill Ivy effectively says there is no requirement for you to defend your faith.
Bill Ivy effectively says there is no requirement for Christians to defend their faith, and in particular, there is no need for message followers to defend what they believe.


Many of the Apostles and disciples were martyred because they recognized a need to defend their faith, and to evangelize their belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. 
===Bill Ivy's view is unscriptural===


Bill Ivy seems to be suggesting that apologetics and apologists are not needed because the Bible and the message don’t need a defense.  Unfortunately, that is not the view of the Apostle Peter, who stated:
Bill Ivy's view is in complete opposition to the Bible.  In 1 Peter 3:15, the Apostle Peter plainly tells us what is required:


:''...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect…''<ref> The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), 1 Pe 3:15.</ref>
:''...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, '''always being prepared to make a defense''' to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; '''yet do it with gentleness and respect'''...''<ref> The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), 1 Pe 3:15.</ref>


The word “defense” used in 1 Peter 3:15 is the Greek word, apologia, which means to provide a reasoned statement or argument<ref>James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).</ref> and is the same word used to described the defense a lawyer makes in a court of law.
The word “defense” used in 1 Peter 3:15 is the Greek word, apologia, which means to provide a reasoned statement or argument<ref>James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).</ref> and is the same word used to described the defense a lawyer makes in a court of law.


Sadly, Pastor Ivy does not take the approach given to us in scripture.  This is similar to virtually all message ministers today.  They say that the message can defend itself and then provide no answers to the questions raised by sincere message followers (such as the questions we had when we were in the message).
Many of the Apostles and disciples were martyred because they recognized a need to defend their faith, and to proclaim their belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
 
Sadly, Pastor Ivy does not take the approach given to us in scripture.  This is similar to virtually all message ministers today.  They say that the message can defend itself and then provide no answers to the questions raised by sincere message followers ([[List of Issues with the Message|such as the questions we had when we were in the message]]).


Bill Ivy uses Acts 17:11 incorrectly...
Bill Ivy uses Acts 17:11 incorrectly...
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This message has the strength to hold me, it is not the prophet that has held me or a pastor, as noble as they may be.  But it is the one that is guiding us to the other side as I just hold steady.  I love what was said in the sermon “Christ is Revealed in His Own Word;”
This message has the strength to hold me, it is not the prophet that has held me or a pastor, as noble as they may be.  But it is the one that is guiding us to the other side as I just hold steady.  I love what was said in the sermon “Christ is Revealed in His Own Word;”


“Now the stabilizers has been put on the ship. Great fearful waves are out here before us; but we know, just beyond that wave yonder, we’re nearing the shore. We’re nearing the shore. Just stay stabled. Just stay in the Word. Stay with God. No matter how you feel, what anything else; stay right with the Word. Let it stay stable, when you see all these great big old clouds around us, and storms coming, and atomic bombs, and everything else they’re talking about. But our stabilizer is right straight in the Word. God said it would be here; we’ll crest every one of them. Yeah, we’ll go right over the top of them. Yes, indeed! They, they can’t sink us. They can’t drown us. You put us in the grave; we’ll come out again. That’s just all there is to it. There ain’t no way in the world to keep it down there. We’ll crest every one of them, ’cause our great Chief Captain is calling at the other side.”
:''“Now the stabilizers has been put on the ship. Great fearful waves are out here before us; but we know, just beyond that wave yonder, we’re nearing the shore. We’re nearing the shore. Just stay stabled. Just stay in the Word. Stay with God. No matter how you feel, what anything else; stay right with the Word. Let it stay stable, when you see all these great big old clouds around us, and storms coming, and atomic bombs, and everything else they’re talking about. But our stabilizer is right straight in the Word. God said it would be here; we’ll crest every one of them. Yeah, we’ll go right over the top of them. Yes, indeed! They, they can’t sink us. They can’t drown us. You put us in the grave; we’ll come out again. That’s just all there is to it. There ain’t no way in the world to keep it down there. We’ll crest every one of them, ’cause our great Chief Captain is calling at the other side.”


Then our Prophet sang; “We’re anchored in Jesus, the storms of life I’ll brave; I’ve anchored in Jesus, I fear no wind or wave;”
Then our Prophet sang; “We’re anchored in Jesus, the storms of life I’ll brave; I’ve anchored in Jesus, I fear no wind or wave;”
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Bro. Branham is clearly not my absolute, but neither is any OTHER MINISTER in this message.  Bro. Branham wasn’t against the ministry, but he sure had problems with them when they were together as a group of men.  Trying to persuade him, understand him, abuse him, take advantage of him, imitate him and even learn from him how do understand the supernatural in his life.  How many times they got him in trouble!  Do you need the quotes?  
Bro. Branham is clearly not my absolute, but neither is any OTHER MINISTER in this message.  Bro. Branham wasn’t against the ministry, but he sure had problems with them when they were together as a group of men.  Trying to persuade him, understand him, abuse him, take advantage of him, imitate him and even learn from him how do understand the supernatural in his life.  How many times they got him in trouble!  Do you need the quotes?  
Yes, we need pastors, evangelist, teachers, etc. but ultimately as a minister and a Pastor I stand alone leading those that the Holy Ghost has entrusted to my care. I appreciate my brethren ministers, but they do not speak for me as a Pastor of my local congregation. However, I am not alone, we are following the same bloody footprints the Prophet followed. We can stand on His shoulders and see so much further down the road than any other age.
Yes, we need pastors, evangelist, teachers, etc. but ultimately as a minister and a Pastor I stand alone leading those that the Holy Ghost has entrusted to my care. I appreciate my brethren ministers, but they do not speak for me as a Pastor of my local congregation. However, I am not alone, we are following the same bloody footprints the Prophet followed. We can stand on His shoulders and see so much further down the road than any other age.


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We draw sides and join clubs and pick our leaders, and do not realize there is something wrong in all of it.  The world is still falling apart again as it was when Christ came the first time!  
We draw sides and join clubs and pick our leaders, and do not realize there is something wrong in all of it.  The world is still falling apart again as it was when Christ came the first time!  
There was a time, we heard the message and we wanted to repent, constantly we were examining ourselves to be right with the Word which the Prophet brought to us.  But alas, now, we look more for what kind of social functions a church has, what is available for the youth, is the music at the standard the young people enjoy, and as pastors we do our best to provide what the people want.  Have we, that claim to still believe, do we really believe, or have we fallen like those we criticize for not being right?  
There was a time, we heard the message and we wanted to repent, constantly we were examining ourselves to be right with the Word which the Prophet brought to us.  But alas, now, we look more for what kind of social functions a church has, what is available for the youth, is the music at the standard the young people enjoy, and as pastors we do our best to provide what the people want.  Have we, that claim to still believe, do we really believe, or have we fallen like those we criticize for not being right?  


Have we all become idolaters in our religious beliefs, calling our views the Word of God? Even if our views are correct, if the fruits of the spirit is not present, and the CHARITY of 1 Corinthians 13 is missing, we make what we know and believe a stumbling block to so many?
Have we all become idolaters in our religious beliefs, calling our views the Word of God? Even if our views are correct, if the fruits of the spirit is not present, and the CHARITY of 1 Corinthians 13 is missing, we make what we know and believe a stumbling block to so many?
Have we made a golden calf out of what we believe.  Remember, while the Prophet Moses was away, the people wanted to know about the God that brought them out of Egypt.  So Aaron gave them a golden calf, which was not another God, but his interpretation (image) of the God that brought them out, an idolatrous medium of the true God.  This was taught by Aaron, but it was the work of man (denominational work)!  Look what it produce!
Have we made a golden calf out of what we believe.  Remember, while the Prophet Moses was away, the people wanted to know about the God that brought them out of Egypt.  So Aaron gave them a golden calf, which was not another God, but his interpretation (image) of the God that brought them out, an idolatrous medium of the true God.  This was taught by Aaron, but it was the work of man (denominational work)!  Look what it produce!


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63-0324E  THE.SEVENTH.SEAL_  JEFFERSONVILLE.IN  
63-0324E  THE.SEVENTH.SEAL_  JEFFERSONVILLE.IN  
“There’s no great man among us. We’re not great men, not great women–we’re all brothers and sisters, all the same in the same bracket. We’re no great. One don’t make one greater than the other one–not a thing at all to do. No, sir. But we’re just all human beings. Don’t try to interpret the things. Don’t try to do anything more than just live a close life, giving praise and honor to Jesus Christ. Everybody understand that now? Amen. Love Him with all your heart. Do you do it?”
:''There’s no great man among us. We’re not great men, not great women–we’re all brothers and sisters, all the same in the same bracket. We’re no great. One don’t make one greater than the other one–not a thing at all to do. No, sir. But we’re just all human beings. Don’t try to interpret the things. Don’t try to do anything more than just live a close life, giving praise and honor to Jesus Christ. Everybody understand that now? Amen. Love Him with all your heart. Do you do it?


Then Bro. Branham sang the song; “I love Him (And I will) I love Him, Because He first loved me, And purchased my salvation, On Calvary’s tree.”
Then Bro. Branham sang the song; “I love Him (And I will) I love Him, Because He first loved me, And purchased my salvation, On Calvary’s tree.”
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