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Question 24 (ABM) - Grounds for Divorce according to William Branham: Difference between revisions
Question 24 (ABM) - Grounds for Divorce according to William Branham (view source)
Revision as of 01:28, 15 January 2019
, 5 years ago→Follow up from BTS
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=Reply from ABM= | |||
BTS, | |||
I can appreciate your position. I apologize for the length of my email. I do not think we are that far apart on the subject of divorce and remarriage. I would summarize our contrasting views on divorce as follows (please correct me if I am mistaken) | |||
You and I are in near complete agreement in our position on divorce between believers | |||
We disagree over permitting divorce in the hypothetical case where one spouse failed to disclosure their non-virginity prior to marriage, but I think the practical result of our full views would have the same result of no divorces occurring for this reason | |||
We disagree over whether a believing spouse can initiate a divorce against their unbelieving spouse | |||
We likewise disagree over remarriage in such a case. We believe a believer who is divorced from an unbeliever may remarry, while you believe they may not remarry | |||
From my perspective, those are the root issues behind our disagreement over Bro. Branham's statements. Bro. Branham's statements about divorce for cutting hair, dressing inappropriate, and dishonoring your spouse are based on his belief that a believer may initiate divorce an unbeliever in certain circumstances. | |||
==Scriptural rationale to permit a believer to remarry if they have divorced from an unbeleiver== | |||
We interpret 1 Cor 7:12-13 where Paul states "she is willing to live with him" differently than you. I do not believe I am twisting the meaning. That word "willing" is not an adequate translations of the Greek word "syneudokei". The Greek word also means gratified, pleased, or hearty agreement. In the King James Version, which we use, it says "she is pleased to dwell with him". (Other translations use the word "contented", "happy", and not "willing". Strong's says: "4909 syneudokéō (from 4862 /sýn, "identity with" and 2106 /eudokéō, "seems good") – properly, to consent in a "hearty" (personal) way, in keeping with the close identification involved (note the syn); enthusiastically agree to cooperate with a partner to reach solutions, i.e. to achieve the things both have committed to do together.") It implies an attitude be present in the unbelieving spouse. This meaning is lost when a translator merely uses the word "willing". And doing something which dishonors your spouse is a clear sign that a pleased, gratified, or hearty attitude is not present in the unbeliever. Thus divorce can be permitted in cases where the attitude of the unbeleiver is not one that can be described as gratified, pleased, or hearty. | |||
We further believe that Matthew 19:11 indicates Jesus's rules for divorce only applies to situations where the parties involved are both believers who accept his teachings. Finally, we believe it is a sin to marry an unbeliever according to 2 Cor 6:14 (among other verses). The sin of marrying an unbeliever is forgiven at conversion, and thus frees the believer to remarry should their marriage end. | |||
It seems like your position has a logical fallacy. You would permit a remarriage if the believer divorced prior to conversion, but not after. (I may be misunderstanding though) | |||
==Emphasis is on the guilty party, not the gender== | |||
We interpret what Bro. Branham said differently from each other. You interpret it to place the emphasis on gender, we interpret it to place emphasis on the guilty party. We believe that each time he suggests the woman is in an inferior position, it is in the scenario where she is the guilty party. It is not her gender which leads to an inferior position, but her status as the guilty party. | |||
You state that virtually every message believer would disagree with what I am saying. That is very mistaken and an oversatement, and a sign of your lack of knowledge of the full movement. There are hundreds of fellowships who believe in the manner I expressed, and you can find confirmation of my statements in the literature of those fellowships. I would agree with you that the idolaters widely believe the way you interpret it. But there are certainly thousands of message believers who believe in the manner I am explaining to you here. | |||
==Cognitive dissonance or rightly dividing the word?== | |||
You suggest we reconcile Bro. Branham's teachings to the bible because we cannot accept Bro. Branham was a false prophet. I would suggest we reconcile them to the bible because we are Christians who believe the bible is the authoritative source of truth. Bro. Branham is not the only person we extend this courtesy to. | |||
A comparative example would be Martin Luther. Martin Luther was a Jew hater, in no uncertain terms. He used scripture to justify if Jew hatred. Hilter subsequently used writings of Martin Luther to justify the the Holocaust. Martin Luther was badly mistaken in his hatred of Jews. Yet clearly, he was a great man of God. Without him, the reformation would have looked very different, or perhaps never happened. | |||
We also extend this courtesy to the men of the bible. Paul said in 1 Cor 7:1 “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman". This seems to be completely contrary the bible. In fact God commanded mankind to be fruitful and multiple. How can this happen without sexual relations? Why is Paul discouraging people from doing the very thing God commanded them to do? Yet, I understand Paul must have had a good intent in what he was saying and I find away to interpret it in that manner. We can see that men took what Paul said concerning sexual relations and largely used that for the basis of a celibate priesthood. Can we blame Paul for that? No, we blame the people who twisted his teachings, and did not view them in light of the full scripture. | |||
==Failure to disclose non-virginity before marriage and the law of Moses== | |||
You state: "... it is clear as we stated in our original question that Jesus clearly changed Mosaic law in his teaching on divorce. Given that, how can you justify bringing the law into the New Testament? Jesus did not carry the principle of Jewish law on divorce into the new covenant, so why would a principle of that law apply here except that you must agree with William Branham?" | |||
I think our disagreement is only slight on this issue. I think in a practical sense, when you think it through, our two overall positions would arrive at the same end result - there would be no divorces occur because of a failure to disclose non-virginity. We have never authorized a divorce for such a reason, and no one has ever asked us for a divorce for such a reason. I am aware of a few cases in other sects of the movement where this was used to legitimize divorce - but in all those situations those were wicked men who were guilty of adultery and other sins and were merely seeking some way to justify their wickedness. | |||
I do disagree slightly with your statement's form though. Jesus did not change the law of Moses, he fulfilled it. The law of Moses is still perfectly in effect, in a sense. (Matt 5:17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.) I would note that the entirety of the law of Moses is not yet fulfilled. We can get into that later. But in essence, we are not bound to keep the precepts of the law to obtain salvation, but we are bound to use it as a guide to inform our understanding (among other things). Paul somewhat explains this in Gal 3:24-25 ("Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.") By calling it a schoolmaster, we understand it is possible to learn from the law, without still being ruled by it. Paul did just that, his faith and beliefs were informed by the law. So while we do not observe its precepts, it is a tool useful for learning and understanding. Christ did not cancel the law or change it, he fulfilled it. What was a type in the law, is now fulfilled in our lives through Christ. So without a depth of explanation, I find no problem with using Deut 22 to inform our interpretation of marriage and divorce. Note: Duet 22 makes no mention of divorce, it is a separate type of case. Thus when Jesus spoke of divorce in Matt 19, the case of Duet 22 was not within his scope of consideration, because Duet 22 did not involve a divorce. | |||
You ask why I would I bring a principle of the law into the New Testament? I do it to inform my understanding. Just like you take what the law states as a mechanism for detecting a false prophet, and use it inform your understanding. You use the law in a limited way. You would not suggest we should take Bro. Branham out and stone him in New Testatement times, you would just suggest we reject him. So in that way you use the law to understand how to handle something in New Testament times. I am merely doing the same. | |||
I stated “We deem any marital sin prior to conversion to be forgiven through baptism and repentance. We do not consider any pre-conversion reason as valid reason to divorce or to prevent remarriage.“ Then you stated and asked: "I agree with this statement but would apply it to all sexual immorality. But you make an exception for this on the marriage night? I don’t understand how you can make such an exception from the New Testament." | |||
We agree in part, the sin of fornication or any sexual immorality is certainly forgiven at conversion. Past forgiven sin is not a cause for divorce. But dishonesty in the present is a new sin. To mislead your spouse about your past is dishonesty. You would expect a spouse to disclose their credit card debt before marriage, for example. It would be very unfair to your spouse to not disclose things that will be impactful to the marriage. This is why counseling before marriage is important, to deal with all these things before they actually happen. A good ministry is going to help their congregants avoid having problems like this to begin with. | |||
When reading the law, we must come to understand the spiritual implications of the law. Because for it to be fulfilled in us, we must be the fulfill what it typed. I can look at Duet 22 and see that it sets a standard that spouses must be honest to each other prior to marriage and not marry under false pretenses. Thus I can spiritualize the type established in the law, the law which we are to fullfill. We fulfill it not by divorcing because of a failure to disclose something prior to marriage, but we fullfill by actually disclosing such things before marriage. So I feel like maybe you miss the point here. The point is not to find grounds to make a divorce. The point is to encourage believers to be fully honest with each other before marriage. And as I have said, we have never had a divorce in any of our fellowships for a reason like this, because we endeavor to fulfill what the law pointed to - honesty before marriage. | |||
But say you have a poor ministry who is not counseling people who get married, and are not fullfilling the type set forward in the law. Let me carry this out to the extreme. Say the spouse you marry is discovered to have contracted a serious STD, and you only find all this out immediately following the marriage because one spouse misled the other and failed to honestly disclose their situation. Perhaps sores are immediately visible and questions lead to the discovery. Imagine the great turmoil this introduces to the marriage immediately. Sexual relations is an important part of marriage, and if the very act of consummating the marriage requires one spouse partake of an awful disease... I hope you can see my thought... (This is a way that a non-virgin husband can also be discovered). We would permit a divorce in this circumstance. Why would we force two people to stay together when marital consummation or continued relations mean contracting a disease? Clearly, the agreement to marry was made under a false pretense. God is not a hard God, so we can look into Duet 22, and we find a principle in the old testament that can inform our understanding and give us a way in which we can handle such an unpleasant situation. Would you force the pair to remain married if they didn't want to after such a discovery? Like I said, we have never known of such a case in any of our churches. | |||
==Implications of your position== | |||
Let me consider fully the implication of your position (please correct me if I am mistaken). You interpret scripture to say a believer may never divorce an unbeliever in any circumstance. Only the unbelieving spouse may initiate divorce. | |||
So if that be what the bible says, how do I handle situations of abuse? Do I force a believing spouse to remain married to an abusive unbelieving spouse? If the unbelieving spouse is unwilling to divorce, it seems like the believer is trapped.. Your interpretation would provide no mechanism for a believing spouse to escape an abusive spouse. And if they did escape (which would violate your interpretation of the command of Paul to stay together if their unbelieving spouse chose to dwell with them), you still see no grounds for the believer to press a divorce? | |||
Worse, how do I handle a situation where there is abuse between two professed believers and the abuser refuses to reform? This woman (or man) is now trapped for the rest of his life in the marriage, her only option is to separate and live a celibate life for no fault of her own. This seems cruel to me, and not fitting with the character of the gospel. | |||
==Conclusion== | |||
You state "There is nothing in the New Testament to support your statement or William Branham's statements. This is contrary to the preaching of Christ and to the apostle Paul." | |||
I believe I have presented a case using Matt 19:11, the logic that their sin of marrying an unbeliever is forgiven at conversion, and a proper interpretation of the Greek word "syneudokei" in 1 Cor 7:12-16, to substantiate my belief. Divorce in any case would only come after a failure at counseling and attempts to reconcile, which Bro. Branham also believed and taught which is an important component I think you are leaving out. And finally, needing to be honest with each other prior to marriage is a perfectly fair interpretation of scripture, and the bible does give allowances (in the old testament) for terminating (the term divorce is not applied to such situation) the marriage in such cases. | |||
King regards, | |||
ABM | |||
=Reply from BTS= | |||
To continue our conversation, as I previously stated, I don't want to deal with the remarriage situation as yet. It complicates things. | |||
And I also don't want to deal with a myriad of issues that distract from what William Branham taught, such as abuse (which he never dealt with). I specifically listed three specific issues where William Branham's views are unscriptural. | |||
So to simplify the question, I want to focus on one of William Branham's unscriptural views - where the wife cuts her hair. | |||
Here are the facts I would like you to consider: | |||
#There is a believing husband and an unbelieving wife. | |||
#The wife is not abusive. But she is not a Christian. | |||
#The wife cuts her hair. She does this in accordance with the acceptable norm of our culture today. Her hair would still be regarded by society as long, past her shoulders, but she does get it cut regularly. | |||
I agree with you that this is a petty issue BUT William Branham states that in this situation the husband has a right to divorce the wife. | |||
It appears that the plain meaning of 1 Cor 7:12 must be ignored if you allow a Christan man to take the initiative and divorce his non-Christian wife simply for cutting her hair in accordance with cultural and societal norms. | |||
Scripture is plain: | |||
:''To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. (1 Co 7:12) | |||
Are you in agreement with William Branham on this issue? | |||
Shalom, | |||
BTS | |||
=Further response from ABM= | |||
BTS, | |||
I think I see another point perhaps where we disconnect. Hair cutting. | |||
Now if your point number 3 was that the wife was refusing to dress and present herself like a lady, but rather insisted on fashioning herself more like a man, then yes, it would be grounds for divorce if it could not be reconciled. | |||
However, if the total facts of the situation are only the three points you give, then I would never approve of such a divorce. | |||
Bro. Branham would not either. First because you leave out the requirement for the couple to be counseled and attempt to reconcile, which he fully supported. | |||
Secondly, I have to interpret what Bro. Branham means by "cutting her hair". Bro. Branham's wife cut her hair... If cutting hair in any form was dishonoring the husband and a divorcable offence, then why would he have remained married to his wife? I am sorry I did not realize you interpreted him to mean no hair cutting at all is permitted. His daughters cut their hair also. My wife cuts her hair. My daughters cut their hair. Pretty well all the woman in our "sect" of the movement cut their hair. And they and did so when they went to the tabernacle while Bro. Branham was living too. He invited us to his house, he never said a thing about it to any of us. He told us we looked holy and proper. (This is one of the things the Ontario street preachers harass our people about, women's hair is too short they say.) Bro. Branham accepted it then and never condemned it. When he talks about cutting hair, we understand, given the context, he means cutting their hair into a style like that or similar to that of a man. A "bobbed" haircut. So hair below the shoulder is entirely acceptable and in no way grounds for divorce, and in no way dishonors to one's husband. | |||
It is only the idolaters who ever took his sayings and interpreted to mean they could not cut their hair at all. It was just his personal desire to see no women cut their hair. The bible does not support an idea like that. If you look into his question and answers series he was asked a question about this. He was very clear that cutting of hair was not completely forbidden, but was acceptable within limits. | |||
:''And now, but cutting the hair, I--I--I'll tell you this. I can't--I--I ain't got no--no Scripture to say that you can cut so much of it and can't do the other. I--I haven't got no Scripture for that; I--I couldn't tell you that, sister, or brother, ever who it is. | |||
:''I say one thing. I wished... Now, I know my kids has done that too, Rebekah and Sarah, I seen when they cut their hair off here in front, and plait it back here in the back, and make these things across the front, like this. I--I don't, I--I... Now, not holding them. See? No, sir. To me, I wished they didn't even put a scissors on their hair at all. But when they got all long, hanging down like this, and just cut the front of it out of their eyes, little kids maybe. I--I wouldn't know whether that'd be wrong; I wouldn't think so. See? - Questions And Answers #3 (64-0830M) | |||
Later in the same message her refers back. | |||
Is it wrong to trim the ends of woman's hair? | |||
:''I believe we just went through that a few minutes ago (See?), for the little... I guess they call them--them little things that hang down like that.. | |||
He indicates clearly he has no scripture for his position, that it is his personal conviction and desire for them to not cut their hair at all, but that he sees nothing wrong with some degree of hair cutting. That said, if someone has a conviction not to cut their hair, that is their freedom to not do so. Holiness is not the outward... It is on the inside. | |||
I understand you want to keep topic focused, but I do not see the other issues related to divorce as completely severable from the discussion. Divorce is an important subject, and the scriptures for it are few and limited. Therefore the precise interpretation of them is critical. If we do not view 1 Cor 7 as providing a rationale for authorizing a believer to initiate divorce from an unbeliever, then there is no scriptural rationale within the bible to then authorize it. This put converted believers then in a very bad position if their mate turns hostile to them but refuses to divorce. I have counseled many married people over the years, and without this interpretation, I do not know another scriptural basis on which I could help those people. "Sorry, go back to your hard unbelieving spouse" does not sound like something Jesus would say. | |||
Kind regards, | |||
ABM | |||
=William Branham did not mean what he said?= | |||
Dear ABM, | |||
Thanks for your response. This is one of my big issues with William Branham - he was all over the map on issues. | |||
Additionally, I was very clear that I wanted to keep this question to the three simple non-scriptural views on divorce that William Branham had. I understand that the whole marriage and divorce issue is incredibly complicated and there are almost an infinite set of variables that you have to deal with when discussing the issue. | |||
I also did not state that a spouse that was being physically abused by their partner could not leave the marriage. That was not an issue that WMB was dealing with. | |||
William Branham clearly stated his view with respect to the issue of a wife cutting her hair. | |||
But now you seem to be saying that he didn't mean that. This is notwithstanding the fact that he said it not once but on multiple occasions - a wife cutting her hair was grounds for divorce. | |||
How can he not mean what he said? | |||
This is someone that I am supposed to take spiritual direction from? | |||
I should add that I do not think that everything William Branham said was wrong. To the extent that he said what scripture said, he spoke the truth. But on this issue, he clearly departs from scripture. | |||
Shalom, | |||
BTS | |||
=Response from ABM= | |||
BTS, | |||
I understand what you are saying concerning conflicting statements, and I agree there are plenty of them. The reason that questions was asked him about hair cutting and trimming was because what he said about had been confusing. I know the one who asked him that question... After Bro. Branham died they started coming to my church, and stayed in fellowship with us until she died.. But as I have said several times in our dialogue, accept the good and reject the bad. | |||
I am sorry if I have over complicated things for you. But I feel it is important to show the same scripture which would be used to allow divorcing an abusive unbeliever, is wrote very liberally, and allows for divorce between a believer and unbeliever for very little cause, including the circumstance I believe Bro. Branham was talking about. I understand we disagree on that point. I just don't understand, if you reject 1 Cor 7 as permitting a believer to initiate a divorce of an unbeliever, where else you find any scriptural justification for it, without conflicting with your own interpretation of 1 Cor 7. When you are so absolute in your interpretation of that scripture, it undermines a Christian's ability to put forward a scriptural position to deal with more difficult divorce situations. At any rate, I will let that go. | |||
I feel clear that Bro. Branham showed that his rationale was because his example case equaled dishonoring the spouse, and that really is the grounds for the divorce, more so than the act which manifested the dishonor. Bro. Branham said if he saw his wife like what he described, he would divorce her. So we can fairly conclude that when he talks about cutting hair, he did not consider her hair cutting to be in the scope of what he was looking at... Yes, it is unfortunate he was not more clear on this. But it was unfortunate Paul was not more clear when he said "It is not good for a man to have sexual relations." Both men have had their statements twisted to support false doctrines by many people. | |||
If you want a last word on this, I will let you take it. | |||
I appreciate your thoughtfulness in your questions. I truly believe that in the end, our beliefs would have the similar practical results concerning divorce. And as Bro. Branham carried out marriage counseling, I believe it also had the same practical results. I hope you maybe see something useful in my responses. | |||
Kind regards, | |||
ABM | |||
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