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A response to Pastor Wisper Gwena: Difference between revisions
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=A response to Pastor Gwena= | |||
The following is Pastor Gwena's comments followed by our, as well as some of our listeners comments from the Off The Shelf website. Pastor Gwena's comments are in italics, ours and others responses are in regular font: | |||
:''The clip you played in your recent episode on the scripture on Israel sojourning in Israel for 400 years, you took an extract that leaves your followers thinking I was teaching our congregation to not believe the bible yet that is not the impression that anyone who listens to the full sermon will ever get. I find the way you are extracting clips without giving the full context of the argument most misleading and typical of a red herring. John Collins in his comments tries to reinforce the same by emphasising that I was doing the bible down which is far from the truth. | |||
:''The simple point my sermon was making in giving these examples was for us to learn from scriptural precedents. Anyone that takes the bible on face value will see the difference between 400 years and 430 years as a contradiction. Bible critics cite this as one of the contradictions in the bible. But we bible believers all know there is NO MISTAKE in the Word of God. It follows there is a revelation that is behind the difference between the 400 years and the 430 years which unless it is explained to you or revealed to you, you will not know. | |||
::As you can see from another comment from someone that I do not know, it appears that John and I are not the only ones that think that the excerpts we took from your 2 hour sermon were representative. The reason we must conclude that you were throwing the Bible under the bus in front of your congregation is that in your extremely long sermon, you gave no reasonable explanation for the two discrepancies you highlighted (Abraham and Elijah). We provided a reasonable explanation on our podcast for both. | |||
You also gave no reasonable BIBLICAL explanation for the discrepancies that we see exhibited in WMB’s ministry. That is why we must conclude that your use of the erroneous biblical “discrepancies” must be considered red herrings. You say that you applied biblical precedents in your sermon but you did not. There was no attempt on your part in your sermon to explain why or how the examples you used (Abraham and Elijah) had anything to do with the message discrepancies. This is the sign of a red herring. You do not use proper logic in your argumentation. Yelling and screaming that something is a biblical precedent does not make it so. | |||
The “message community” is not happy with the explanations because they avoid any explanation like the plague. As one ex-message follower told us, “I thought my pastor had examined these issues and that he had our best interest in mind. But I came to learn that was false.” These issues are not examined. I do applaud you for trying to do so but when you hide your sermons behind the security of your website, it appears disingenuous. | |||
The explanations we have heard are at best grasping at straws, which is what happens according to cognitive dissonance theory. Have you read Festinger’s landmark study in “When Prophecy Fails”. If not, then I don’t know how you can attempt to speak knowledgeably on the issue of cognitive dissonance. | |||
You make statements that are not based on scripture. That is my foundation. That is the foundation of the CHRISTIAN church. | |||
God did not ask WMB to shoot a brown bear! WMB said THUS SAITH THE LORD that I WILL shoot a brown bear. As soon as he did that, he opened himself up to be judged according to Deut 18:20-22. Based on your explanation of how to apply that passage, it could never be applied because any “prophet” with a failed vision could give the same lame excuse that you provide for WMB… “sorry I messed up.” That excuse is not valid for Deut 18:20-22. | |||
You cannot discern whether his gift was fake or real if you have not talked to the people who were the subject of the gift. Have you read the testimony of Alfred Pohl. Have you read the comments of Walter Hollenweger who was WMB’s interpreter in Europe? He concluded that WMB’s discernment gift appeared amazingly accurate but actual healings were RARE. Of course you won’t believe that because of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. | |||
WMB operated under a spirit which pointed to WMB and not to Christ. Colossians 2:18-19 applies to WMB: Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. | |||
Finally, what has been achieved in your life. If WMB’s message caused it you should be worried. Jesus Christ changed my life. It is him who I serve and none other. God will not share his glory with anyone. The spirit of God does not come through the tapes, but certainly, the spirit of WMB does. | |||
I am aware of Muslims who have been delivered from drug abuse and thus give praise to Allah and say what you say – HOW CAN I FIND FAULT WITH IT WHEN THAT HAS BEEN ACHIEVED IN MY LIFE? | |||
What matters is truth. Truth agrees with the facts because truth is a quality of factual evidence. If you have problems with our evidence, we will be happy to state publicly where our evidence is not factual. But making intellectually dishonest statements that you should ignore the facts is not something that we are prepared to overlook. | |||
==Listener comments== | |||
Hi Wisper, | |||
Its great to see that you are willing to stand for the message. I don’t agree completely with your line of argument. The bible doesn’t say the God gave Abraham or Elijah a vision. It says God spoke to them. In the same way the bible doesn’t tell us that Elijah said ‘Thus saith the lord I will anoint Hazael. Its often difficult for folk to follow a written debate so I am really looking forward to your podcast with Rod and John. One of the main concerns I have about the message is that nobody would ever give me scriptural answers to my questions. I was told that things were correct as long as the prophet said them. I am genuinely looking forward to see you give a valid scriptural account of what makes brother Branham a prophet. | |||
Thanks and God bless you | |||
Tony | |||
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Wisper Gwena, | |||
I have listened to the full sermon sent to me by one of your church members. To be honest no one will have the time to listen to some of what you say in there as it is irrelevant to what you were addressing. Your sermon was long and not to the point. I agree that the clips were representative of the points you raised. Your congregation would say Amen even to things which were your own perspective and not the actual facts. I will be happy to hear of your responses too. | |||
Norman | |||