BelieveTheSign

A response to Bill Ivy's Defense of the Message: Difference between revisions

Page Discussion

A response to Bill Ivy's Defense of the Message (view source)

Revision as of 04:24, 2 January 2020

No change in size ,  4 years ago
no edit summary
No edit summary
Line 7: Line 7:


On December 24, 2019, he posted an article on the website of Living Word Tabernacle which we strongly disagree with.  While his post does contain something we would agree with, we want to be clear about our main points of disagreement.
On December 24, 2019, he posted an article on the website of Living Word Tabernacle which we strongly disagree with.  While his post does contain something we would agree with, we want to be clear about our main points of disagreement.
==A question for Bill Ivy==
We were believers of the message for decades.  We eagerly received the message that was brought to us by message followers.  We were told certain things that we believed to be true.  However, sin in the leadership of the message church we attended, and the lack of any response from the many message ministers we knew, caused us to go back to the word.  We asked ourselves two questions:
#Had ministers of the message perverted William Branham's teaching? OR
#Was there a fundamental problem with the message itself?
We believed the message and we WANTED IT TO BE TRUE.  But '''like the Bereans we needed to DETERMINE IF THE MESSAGE WAS TRUE.'''
The words of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 constantly confronted us:
:''But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.<ref>The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Dt 18:20–22.</ref>
So we would ask Bill Ivy the following question - What do we do when we find problems in the message?
Should we ignore the plain reading of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 if we discover a significant problem?
'''If Bill Ivy denies there are problems, we would ask him to click on the issues below and respond publicly to the questions we have asked''' (these questions have been on this website for over 7 years without a single message minister contacting us with an answer AND we have stated publicly we would change anything that anyone could prove to be incorrect):
#[[The Municipal Bridge Vision|Why did William Branham say that the municipal bridge vision was fulfilled when it clearly wasn't?]] '''(is this a failed prophecy?)'''
#[[The Brown Bear Vision|Why did William Branham say "Thus Saith The Lord" that he would shoot a large brown bear, when he didn't?]] '''(is this a failed prophecy?)'''
#[[The Vision of the Meetings in South Africa|Why did the vision that William Branham had of the meetings in south Africa fail to be fulfilled?]] '''(is this a failed prophecy?)'''
##[[Franklin D. Roosevelt|Why did William Branham prophecy that America would start World War 2?]] '''(is this a failed prophecy?)'''
#[[Did William Branham visit the graves of Muhammad, Buddha, and Confucius?]]
#Did William Branham visit the Vatican and see the inscription "''[[VICARIVS FILII DEI]]''" above the throne of the Pope?
#Did William Branham see [[Stories about Eagles|a mother eagle carry her babies on her wings?]]
#[[The Cloud|Why did William Branham say that he was under the cloud when they took its picture, when he clearly wasn't?]]
#[[Marriage and Divorce|William Branham believed that if a wife cuts her hair, her husband can divorce her.  Does the Bible teach this?]]
These are only a few of the questions that we asked... To see the full list, [[List of Issues with the Message|click here]].
We have tried to behave like the Bereans and we are respectfully requesting that Bill Ivy do the same.  Bro. Bill, if you believe that we are incorrect in our conclusions, please email us and let us know why.  We will promptly change anything on this website that can be proved to be incorrect.


==Does the Bible REQUIRE us to defend our faith?==
==Does the Bible REQUIRE us to defend our faith?==
Line 55: Line 88:


:''If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.<ref>The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 6:3–5.</ref>
:''If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.<ref>The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 6:3–5.</ref>
===A question for Bill Ivy===
We were believers of the message for decades.  We eagerly received the message that was brought to us by message followers.  We were told certain things that we believed to be true.  However, sin in the leadership of the message church we attended, and the lack of any response from the many message ministers we knew, caused us to go back to the word.  We asked ourselves two questions:
#Had ministers of the message perverted William Branham's teaching? OR
#Was there a fundamental problem with the message itself?
We believed the message and we WANTED IT TO BE TRUE.  But '''like the Bereans we needed to DETERMINE IF THE MESSAGE WAS TRUE.'''
The words of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 constantly confronted us:
:''But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.<ref>The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Dt 18:20–22.</ref>
So we would ask Bill Ivy the following question - What do we do when we find problems in the message?
Should we ignore the plain reading of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 if we discover a significant problem?
'''If Bill Ivy denies there are problems, we would ask him to click on the issues below and respond publicly to the questions we have asked''' (these questions have been on this website for over 7 years without a single message minister contacting us with an answer AND we have stated publicly we would change anything that anyone could prove to be incorrect):
#[[The Municipal Bridge Vision|Why did William Branham say that the municipal bridge vision was fulfilled when it clearly wasn't?]] '''(is this a failed prophecy?)'''
#[[The Brown Bear Vision|Why did William Branham say "Thus Saith The Lord" that he would shoot a large brown bear, when he didn't?]] '''(is this a failed prophecy?)'''
#[[The Vision of the Meetings in South Africa|Why did the vision that William Branham had of the meetings in south Africa fail to be fulfilled?]] '''(is this a failed prophecy?)'''
##[[Franklin D. Roosevelt|Why did William Branham prophecy that America would start World War 2?]] '''(is this a failed prophecy?)'''
#[[Did William Branham visit the graves of Muhammad, Buddha, and Confucius?]]
#Did William Branham visit the Vatican and see the inscription "''[[VICARIVS FILII DEI]]''" above the throne of the Pope?
#Did William Branham see [[Stories about Eagles|a mother eagle carry her babies on her wings?]]
#[[The Cloud|Why did William Branham say that he was under the cloud when they took its picture, when he clearly wasn't?]]
#[[Marriage and Divorce|William Branham believed that if a wife cuts her hair, her husband can divorce her.  Does the Bible teach this?]]
These are only a few of the questions that we asked... To see the full list, [[List of Issues with the Message|click here]].
We have tried to behave like the Bereans and we are respectfully requesting that Bill Ivy do the same.  Bro. Bill, if you believe that we are incorrect in our conclusions, please email us and let us know why.  We will promptly change anything on this website that can be proved to be incorrect.


==The concept of the "church ages"==
==The concept of the "church ages"==
Line 95: Line 95:
:''I believe that God give us a one man ministry, it was a one man ministry to the “AGE”. None other possesses that, he was the last church age Messenger and the Seventh Angel according to scripture (Rev 3:14, 10:1-7).  
:''I believe that God give us a one man ministry, it was a one man ministry to the “AGE”. None other possesses that, he was the last church age Messenger and the Seventh Angel according to scripture (Rev 3:14, 10:1-7).  


Bill Ivy asserts that there is a "church age", but this term never appears in Scripture. it is a construct of dispensationalists such as Larkin and others to justify their assertions as the Spirit of Elijah when they cast themselves in the role of MESSENGER...


Bill Ivy asserts that there is a church "AGE"...  and this word never appears in Scripture, it is a construct of dispensationalists such as Larkin and others to justify their assertions as the Spirit of Elijah when they cast themselves in the role of MESSENGER...
='''What are we defending?''' By Bill Ivy=
 
=What are we defending? By Bill Ivy=


We all want to defend what we believe!  From one extreme to the other we can find a reason.  We have our scriptures, we can find quotes to shut the mouth of those that oppose us.  Where does it end, who is right, and who is wrong?  
We all want to defend what we believe!  From one extreme to the other we can find a reason.  We have our scriptures, we can find quotes to shut the mouth of those that oppose us.  Where does it end, who is right, and who is wrong?  
Retrieved from "http:///index.php?title=Special:MobileDiff/24117"