Question 3 (BM2) - Moving on to other issues... like the Bible
The following are a series of questions and answers between one of our editors (referred to as BTS Editor 2 or BTS 2 in the discussions) and a message minister from the progressive revelation sect of the message (referred to as BM2 - Branham Minister #2). Click on the link to go to the specific question and answer. You are currently on the topic that is in bold:
This is the second in our series of questions and answers with ministers of the message. Please click here to go to the first in our Q&A series.
BTS - Thursday, January 31, 2019, 2:35:40 PM
Your spirited defense of William Branham as a prophet of God is understandable given your investment in him and his ministry. After all, to admit that Branham was a false prophet given that you have defended him and taught what he taught as scriptural doctrine for decades is tantamount to admitting that you pray to the wrong god.
Your denial, however, of prophecies which did not come to pass which Branham spoke is sad.
We aren’t the problem here. When we show what Branham said and compare it in plain language to God’s Word, you accuse us of having an agenda. Again, our agenda is nothing more or less than demonstrating using Branham’s own words that he is a liar, a fraud, and a false prophet. We didn’t say those things, Branham did. We didn’t proclaim that we are prophets of God, Branham did. And he was gracious enough to provide over 1100 sermons in digital format and in writing so we can do what the Word of God exhorts us to do and examine what he says against the Word of God.
Even Branham admitted that the South Africa prophecy did not come to pass. And ministers who accompanied Branham on his hunting trip to British Columbia admit that he did not shoot a brown bear on the trip which he proclaimed using The Saith The Lord would absolutely happen because “God’s Word has no lie in it.”
You have seen where the Municipal Bridge vision has been debunked for the reason that Branham was not even born when he claims the vision took place, and the Ohio River “vindication” of Branham as a prophet of God is complete destroyed given there isn’t even agreement from Branham himself about what really happened at the river that day through his many retellings.
We know through scripture that God has a ZERO TOLERANCE for when what a man proclaims as a prophet of God does not come to pass. And in previous emails I have named 4 contemporaneous prophecies which Branham spoke using the Authority of God, THUS SAITH THE LORD, which did not come to pass, were not true.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (HCSB)
You clearly will make excuses for Branham without admitting that he failed in his prophecies. I can appreciate your vigorous defense of the investment you have made in his ministry, but am somewhat baffled by your denial of the plain truth in front of you.
Visions and prophecies not coming to pass is but one attribute which makes a prophet a false prophet according to scripture.
Let us look at things which Branham taught which do not align with scripture.
We will start at the Old Testament where we can show you where what he teaches which does not align with God’s Word and disqualifies him as a prophet of God. Perhaps you can tell us how what Branham taught under God’s Authority which is incorrect qualifies him as a prophet of God as we go through this exercise..
Branham said this:
There are many others, but these are just a few examples. But that’s not what the Bible says. The Bible says this:
Genesis 1:27 (HCSB)
Genesis 2:18-25 (HCSB)
Now, in the previous example (just one of many many many more which we are prepared to show you) Branham repeats and contends vigorously that women were not of God’s design, that Satan designed woman. Branham tells us plainly in his words that women are not created by God. Is this a position which you can defend? Given the scriptures which are clearly stated in scripture concerning the reason God created Eve, can you support Branham in this assertion?
Let’s look back at the assertion I made in the last email for a moment concerning Branham teaching nonsense and doing it using God’s Authority. When I spoke about Adam’s rib, you passed that off by saying that this man just didn’t know everything when he was born, and there isn’t an example of any man knowing everything. I agree. Men are not born knowing everything. But in that instance, Branham was speaking as God’s prophet asserting that he had God’s Authority to speak. When one speaks in this manner, should they be accurate when they speak? We can find no instance in scripture when a true prophet of God says ANYTHING with God’s Authority which is incorrect, not one instance. But here Branham does this and apparently a lot.
Clearly, this begs the question… Is there a RED-LETTER edition of the message a volume which shows us what we are to pay attention to and what we are to ignore? Who would create such an edition? What man would comb through Branham’s sermons and determine when he WAS speaking with God’s Authority and when he wasn’t? Would that person be you?
You see, the problem is that message ministers such as yourself teach what THEY believe are scriptural truths using Branham’s message. In the instance which I highlighted earlier concerning 24 versus 23 ribs in a man, message schools reinforced Branham’s teaching because after all he was a prophet of God… how could he possibly get that wrong? Who is it then who will determine and enforce across the world those things which SHOULD be taught which Branham said using God’s Authority and which should be ignored? Are you prepared to create that definitive red-letter edition?
And where in scripture do we see a true prophet of God teaching something using God’s Authority which was incorrect?
How does one discriminate within Branham’s message things like who created woman and how do we categorize it because Branham (who you vigorously defend as God’s true prophet) taught it using God’s Authority and got it wrong?
Further to Branham teaching things which do not align with scripture, Branham said this:
What does Genesis have to say about this?
Timeline from Adam to Noah
According to Genesis, Noah was born 69 years after Enoch was translated from the earth. Noah received instructions to build the ark roughly 400 years after Enoch’s translation.
And yet Branham taught that Enoch and Noah were on the earth at the same time in several instances throughout his ministry.
This is just a couple examples of where Branham taught something which does not align with scripture within the Book of Genesis. There are others, but for brevity sake we have included only two topics in just ONE BOOK of the Bible, the Inspired Word of God.
Is the Bible correct?? Or does Branham supersede the Bible and replace things which Branham taught?
This goes back to our discussion of the RED-LETTER EDITION. Are you prepared to create the final “approved” version of Branham’s message so everyone can know what God’s Word really says?
In the meanwhile, there are message ministers who study very little or not at all so they repeat these things as the “newly revealed Word of God”, the “Next Testament”. People buy in to this nonsense, just like they teach in message schools that men only have 23 ribs.
Defending prophecies and visions which do not come to pass is easy for you as it seems there is a never-ending list of excuses about why what Branham said never came to pass… “oh, but it will”, or “it has but you just don’t realize it”. Let’s see how you do when it comes to defending Branham as he teaches things which are directly opposed to God’s Word, as we started here with the Book of Genesis. There will be others, I promise. The Bible is full of examples of where what Branham taught in his “Next Testament” does not align with God’s Word.
Your personal conclusions mean very little to me when you defend someone so egregiously extra- and anti-scriptural. I wonder that you still call yourself a minister of the Gospel when as you preach what Branham said it bears so little resemblance to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
But I await your response.
BM2 Response - Saturday, February 2, 2019 10:43 AM
You said >>>> Your spirited defense of William Branham as a prophet of God is understandable given your investment in him and his ministry. After all, to admit that Branham was a false prophet given that you have defended him and taught what he taught as scriptural doctrine for decades is tantamount to admitting that you pray to the wrong god. Your denial, however, of prophecies which did not come to pass which Branham spoke is sad.
I say.....Why should I or anyone else lie..... or even twist facts as you have done. So far...you have taken incidents out of their settings and through presenting only part of the full truth of the matter....attempted to smear a man's ministry. Myself and others.....who have been in and around William Branham's ministry and communicated with many witnesses and who literally saw the questioned events.....have said that you bend the events ....to fit your agenda.
THE BRIDGE IS THERE...BIG AS LIFE and exactly on the spot where the Vision said it would be. The witnesses say.... that several men fell off of the 1st water pylon...though the exact number ....can't be proven either way. The age of William Branham at 7 and the 22 years given by the Vision and also the recent instructions by Divine visitation....place the exact time of the bridges' completion. In fact.... from fall of the year when the Vision was given.... to the fall of the year at its completion in 29.
You tried the failed healing angle and were shown by instances...both personally by my own experience and by Scripture....that states emphatically .....that an evil spirit.... can come back on a person after healing and they can be worse off ....than before the healing. They might even die after a perfect complete deliverance. That doesn't prove they weren't healed at the time of being prayed for previously...by no means! It does show a lack of Scriptural understanding on your part Brother....concerning basic Bible truths.
Now you come up with a rather ludicrous "WRONG GOD" angle. The GOD that I pray to.... has been faithfully demonstrated for years...in healing the sick and casting out devils....which devils by the way....have agreed with you.... in despising Brother Branham's ministry. The GOD that William Branham prayed to....defeated all other gods....that challenged him....bar none. You are the one that I feel sorry for...seeing that you have no god to demonstrate to anyone...just an argument .....based on hate and opinion.
You said >>>>We know through scripture that God has a ZERO TOLERANCE for when what a man proclaims as a prophet of God does not come to pass. And in previous emails I have named 4 contemporaneous prophecies which Branham spoke using the Authority of God, THUS SAITH THE LORD, which did not come to pass, were not true.
I say......In our exchanges...we have gone over the Old Testament reference to prophets....a couple of times. Even under the LAW....if a prophet doesn't try to lead the people to false gods....he is to be ignored....NOT KILLED!
I will say...that if an Old Testament prophet tried to teach a Trinity of persons....he would have been killed immediately....RIGHT? How many.... of that kind of prophets.... are a part of/in your bunch?
In the new Testament.... it is said by Paul in 1 Cor.13:8-10....that even prophesying in part is tolerated and that.... without any stated penalty. I remember your emphasizing in our earlier exchanges.....that we aren't under the LAW ...but under GRACE!!!! Which is it Brother. You seem to pick and choose to fit your agenda.
We have shown you.... by Scriptural reference in FACT....that most of the Prophecies of the Book of Revelation haven't happened yet. That doesn't make the Visions false ....nor does it prove that it won't come to pass. You are doing the same thing the unbelieving critics of written Scriptural prophecies do...by claiming prophecies failed.... because they have not yet happened. I say the Visions will come to pass...you say they won't. I can't prove my Faith to an unbeliever and you can't prove your unbelief to a believer ....RIGHT?
If I am wrong...at least I didn't speak against the Visions and if you are wrong...you have called something of the Holy Ghost.... an unclean and evil thing. That's in the reprobate category.
Matthew 12:32.....And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
I say..... I think I'll take my chances on believing that they will come to pass...... it's called FAITH. Don't cast the Visions off onto the man....he didn't give himself the Visions. I believe it was GOD that gave them. I'm hoping that you don't believe ....that it was the devil that gave the Visions. It's your choice and fatal.... if you make the wrong one.
I am of the FAITH...that believes that GOD could have and would have..... raised Isaac from the dead...... to fulfill His Word to Abraham. In Isaac..... the true SEED of GOD are to be called. That prophecy projected in time.... to the LORD JESUS raising to fulfill prophecy and then in the endtime.... to those who He will raise in the manifestation of the Sons of GOD. I believe ....that all the yet unfulfilled Visions given to William Branham will come to pass....as surely as the Prophecy given to Isaiah over 500 years before it happened...that a virgin would conceive. That prophecy probably really stumbled the critics.
You said >>>>> We will start at the Old Testament where we can show you where what he teaches which does not align with God’s Word and disqualifies him as a prophet of God. Perhaps you can tell us how what Branham taught under God’s Authority which is incorrect qualifies him as a prophet of God as we go through this exercise..
Branham said this:“Look, a woman is not even so low… She’s not even a creation in God.” 56-0715“...
I say.....You lifted the 56 statement out of context....TOTALLY!!!!! He explains the rest in the same paragraph afterwards.
Let's examine the Scriptural FACTS of the statements.
FACT....All males and females in the ORIGINAL creation....outside of mankind .....were created together at the same time.
FACT.... Adam ALONE....was created in the human specie.... in human creation order. The Female...Eve....was not in the original creation of the human specie.
FACT....No animal in creation was told not to eat of the tree...except Adam and Eve.
FACT....GOD set in His order and by His ordained purpose...so that there could be.... by human choice....the fall.
FACT.....Adam and Eve were given responsibility and responsibility can't be achieved without CHOICE (Free moral agency)!
FACT.....Eve was created secondarily.... to be the source of UNBELIEF by being deceived.....it was her choice!
FACT....Eve was deceived.... as Paul taught explicitly in 2Cor. 11: 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
FACT.....None of creation outside of human....can commit adultery.
FACT....We could fill a page or two carrying the thought through Scripture and show without question...(to a Bible believer)....why the woman was cursed and the man was not and also why that through Scripture....the woman was assigned by GOD....a subjective place in all things......PERIOD!
You said >>>> Let’s look back at the assertion I made in the last email for moment concerning Branham teaching nonsense and doing it using God’s Authority. When I spoke about Adam’s rib, you passed that off by saying that this man just didn’t know everything when he was born, and there isn’t an example of any man knowing everything. I agree. Men are not born knowing everything. But in that instance, Branham was speaking as God’s prophet asserting that he had God’s Authority to speak. When one speaks in this manner, should they be accurate when they speak? We can find no instance in scripture when a true prophet of God says ANYTHING with God’s Authority which is incorrect, not one instance. But here Branham does this and apparently a lot.
Clearly this begs the question… Is there a RED-LETTER edition of the message a volume which shows us what we are to pay attention to and what we are to ignore? Who would create such an edition? What man would comb through Branham’s sermons and determine when he WAS speaking with God’s Authority and when he wasn’t? Would that person be you?
I say......William Branham grew in both natural and spiritual understanding....no differently than any Son or Daughter of GOD grows. He didn't live in Heaven. Your position is actually ridiculous and defies common sense.
I attempted to call to your attention in all reasonability....that Paul...before his Damascus road experience...believed and taught totally contrary to the Apostles. If we had 1100 or so recorded teachings of Paul...would you use them.... to teach against his later teachings??? We don't have his recorded teachings against the Apostolic doctrine...but there is enough evidence from his own writings to identify his errors and that he persecuted the Church above measure. He laid his garment at the feet of the recently slain Stephen... as a witness against Stephen's belief. It could be shown without question....about the Prophets in the Bible...who made errors in judgment...lied and deceived purposely...yet their position as GOD's chosen Prophet is not negated....ever!
Your thought processes on this.... are pitifully twisted and self serving.
You can't prove that William Branham ever purposely deceived anyone. In FACT....all that knew him...have testified that he was the most honest man they had ever known. I would venture to say...that you never met him...much less knew him personally. So...your accusations are only based on what you interpret..... from what you want to hear on recordings and that.....without actually knowing the circumstances of statements made.....nor the details behind them. In my research....I have found in many cases....THE REST OF THE STORY!
Even in the Seals teachings...Brother Branham would make statements that he had to change the next night. He was corrected from his thinking ....to what was shown by open Vision..... from one service to the next. Whoever the Elect are...they are given the ability to discern and locate in/through Scripture....the mysteries of GOD. IT IS NOT GIVEN TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT ELECT....Scripture affirms this!
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
BTS2 - Saturday, February 2, 2019, 11:53:46 AM MST
Are you suggesting that Branham’s vision had to do with the bridge being built? Really? His vision had to do with 16 men who fell into the water and drowned while the bridge was being built, according to Branham… an incident which never occurred.
By the way, we absolutely agree. Since Branham’s visions failed, then let’s not kill him… as you suggest, let’s ignore him. When do you start?
And again, the only person who claimed falsely to be a prophet of God was William Branham… certainly not I.
Concerning the gift of prophecy, I attach our previous discussion. Clearly it has slipped your mind:
In this quote, Branham refers directly to Deuteronomy Chapter 18 and declares that this IS the appropriate examination of him as a prophet of God:
William Branham also said this:
You see, BM2, we can only examine what Branham said in his own words against the Word of God. That’s what scripture instructs us to do in order to determine whether these things are “actually so”, just like the Bereans did:
Acts 17:10-11 (HCSB)
We see that Branham inappropriately placed himself in the position of an OLD TESTAMENT prophet carrying God’s Word and singularly representing God to the people. In previous emails, I included quotes from Branham where he stated that he was the “LAST SIGN”, and he told us in his sermons that his interpretation of the Bible was correct including those things which I just quoted:
When we examine Branham against the Word of God, what other possible conclusion are we to make? He considers himself a prophet in the caste of an OLD TESTAMENT prophet. Isn’t it appropriate for him to be examined against how an OLD TESTAMENT prophet is examined in the Word of God?
Had Branham said he received a Word from the Lord, had what he said aligned with scripture, had he not lied in the Name of the Lord (THUS SAITH THE LORD), and had two or three other prophets confirmed what he said, then we would have reason to examine him as a minister of God with the Gift of the Holy Spirit of prophecy.
1 Corinthians 14:29-33 (HCSB)
Then we could respectfully disagree or agree that he was a man of God. But since Branham improperly placed himself in a different role, we must examine him according to the position in which he caste himself.
This scripture tells us that the prophets are under the control of the prophets. The Apostle Paul wrote these words to clarify for us the prophet’s role in the NEW COVENANT of God after the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins. Branham tells us that he is not under the control of the prophets in the NEW COVENANT:
Using Branham’s own words, we see how he would suggest that we are to examine him against scripture. Deuteronomy Chapter 18 does indeed apply.”
What we do is simple we take BRANHAM’S WORDS and show them to you. Branham tells us that he is an OLD TESTAMENT PROPHET. We understand that the Holy Spirit offers the gift of prophecy, and we think that’s great. But the use of that gift differs dramatically from what Branham claimed he exercised. And to suggest that “FAITH” in the visions and prophecies is more of what is needed, I will tell you that we are instructed by scripture to examine what a prophet of God says against the Word of God. We do this, as previously stated, just as the Bereans did:
Acts 17:10-11 (HCSB)
And, again… good catch about most of the prophecies which were spoken in the Book of Revelation not having come to pass yet. That’s because, as you may remember our previous discussion, a prophet speaks about three time periods:
Sir, if we have to continue to repeat ourselves, it shows that you really aren’t paying attention or we aren’t being articulate enough. If we need to be more articulate let us know.
Concerning Adam and Eve, you again are obfuscating. We understand the creation story. But you seem to be ignoring that Branham said that Eve was not designed and created by God contrary to the very Word of God. We understand about the “fall”. And we agree with the Apostle Paul… there hasn’t been disagreement about that. What is at issue is what Branham taught, not what you wish to speak about concerning the “fall”.
And I see that you failed to speak at all about Enoch and Noah.
Let’s take a look at another couple of Books in the Bible.
How about the Books of 1 and 2 Samuel? 1 Samuel talks about King Saul among other things.
Here’s what Branham taught several times (more by the way than these couple of examples):
According to Branham, the people of the Nation of Israel searched the land until they found for themselves Saul and elected him to be their king despite Samuel’s counsel.
What does the Bible say about who selected Saul?
1 Samuel 9:15-17 (HCSB)
The Bible says God Himself selected Saul and told Samuel to anoint him king over the nation.
You have mentioned now several times that Branham grew in his understanding of things, scriptural and intellectual. We think that’s great for a minister, or a preacher, or even an evangelist. However, we come to quite a problem when someone, as Branham did, proclaims that he speaks with God’s Authority, and suggests that nothing he said had to be changed or edited as Branham did here:
You see, here again… these things aren’t our views, our opinions. We take what BRANHAM SAID and we show them to you.
So, let’s return to the question of the RED-LETTER edition of the message. Who will prepare that? Which portions of the message are you prepared to ignore knowing that Branham was growing in his understanding? And how does growing in his understand square with what the Bible tells us about God’s ZERO-TOLERANCE policy of a prophet speaking that which does not align with God’s Word?
I would like to offer a suggestion. In future emails, it would be shorter and more concise if we could not repeat what we clearly stated in earlier emails. Perhaps we could focus on the issues being presented instead of your attempts to cast aspersions on us.
I look forward to your next response.
BM2 - Wednesday, February 6, 2019 12:54 PM
You said >>>>Are you suggesting that Branham’s vision had to do with the bridge being built? Really? His vision had to do with 16 men who fell into the water and drowned while the bridge was being built, according to Branham… an incident which never occurred.
I say.....What never occurred? If you are referring specifically to the bridge Vision itself....yes Brother...that's my subject reference. A couple below.... of many statements.... referring to the bridge Vision.... fortelling the bridge spanning at the same place he saw the Vision! Exact place and time it was finished! The scaffolding collapse was seen by witnesses...with only the number falling being left in question. 3 out of 3.... by provable audio testimony and visible evidence and you say it never occurred????? Are you in denial???
You said >>>>By the way, we absolutely agree. Since Branham’s visions failed, then let’s not kill him… as you suggest, let’s ignore him. When do you start?
I say......When did I ever agree that his Visions failed???? As a living witness...I watched night after night....as scores of Visions manifested in specific demonstration every night and not one time did the person standing before him .....say it wasn't so. The testimonies I heard later..... given by the recipients of those Visions was....that man is a Prophet of GOD! As I have stated before....there has never been a ministry of that magnitude in power and demonstration...since the time of the LORD JESUS. It's your right to ignore anything you wish...but just ignoring.... is not working to destroy...with all that love you show for a Brother..... who won millions to Christ.
You said >>>>When we examine Branham against the Word of God, what other possible conclusion are we to make? He considers himself a prophet in the caste of an OLD TESTAMENT prophet. Isn’t it appropriate for him to be examined against how an OLD TESTAMENT prophet is examined in the Word of God?
I say......Examining any Old Testament Prophet's life and ministry.... must be done with a little spiritual insight. We have brought to your attention....that Prophets of the Old Testament were men....subject to human flaws. Abraham lied to deceive Abimelech....Jacob defrauded his Brother and deceived his own dad....Jonah prophesied the destruction of Nineveh and when it didn't happen. After prophesying....he sat on the side of a hill....waiting for Nineveh's destruction and the Prophet David..... committed Adultery purposely. Now...by your carnal judging...they would by/of necessity...... have to be under your false prophet heading.
The record of Old Testament Prophets has purposeful projected lessons of failure and victory for all Saints and for all of time. I think/see that you have only a limited mechanical comprehension of Scriptural teachable events and completely miss the deeper hidden truths .....to be garnered by Holy Ghost insight to/for the Elect. I believe it is called..... Revelation!
We examine William Branham's ministry over 33 years and see a real man...who wasn't afraid to admit his mistakes and stand correction when rebuked by GOD. We watched him be led of the Holy Ghost...into truth...just as Scripture states. One cannot be led into truth....without being corrected of errors. That's common sense!
In his visitation.... concerning the 7 mountains that GOD pointed out to him...GOD gave His correction and also reminded Brother Branham of his commission. GOD told Brother Branham..... that his ministry was GREATER than that of the Old Testament Prophets...with more Gifts and in an Apostolic form.....which the Old Testament Prophets didn't have. I think GOD's thoughts pertaining to William Branham.... are greater than your agenda to find fault and destroy! Don't you think it unusual.... that the whole area that GOD told Brother Branham..... that had his Name all over it....is actually called the Branham mountains..... Branham lake and even the soil is called Branham soil. I'm sure that galls your hate agenda.
By the way...it is not I who brings dispersion on your movement. It is your not so veiled hate speech...arrived at by part truths and twisted interpretations of events. I have thoroughly checked out what you have presented so far and find it seriously biased. If GOD judges your bunch...as you have smeared William Branham's ministry....I think you are in serious trouble.
BTS2 - Thursday, February 7, 2019, 2:39:15 PM
It occurs to me as I read your latest email that there remains a serious issue. We, the two of us, have entirely different views of what scripture says about a person who proclaims that they are a prophet and how they actually qualify as a prophet of God.
You may remember, and I won’t repeat it here for brevity, that we discussed exactly how scripture tells us we must examine a man to determine if they are a true prophet.
So far your excuses for failed visions have been faulty math, a witness whose math is just as faulty, ignoring the key issues of the vision (16 men falling into the water and drowning as Branham said versus alternative theories), and speaking about Branham progressing in his maturity and walk with God. By the way, the last excuse offered is what I will be referring to as “progressive revelation”. Or you haven’t bothered to offer any refutation of what Branham said at all (correctly because what he says in many cases is totally indefensible).
So, you have told me that God Himself corrected Branham in things which he spoke early in his ministry which God needed to, let’s say to be generous, “fine tune”.
What that tells me, and make sure if you disagree you let me know, if Branham spoke something early in his ministry and later changed it, that God obviously corrected him and now he spoke with God’s true Authority. That’s sort of the point of my asking about the RED-LETTER EDITION of the message, but let’s not belabor the point.
How about when Branham tells us something, then changes his teaching presumably because God corrected him, and then he goes back to teaching it the way he did before God’s correction? Do you think if Branham were to be corrected by God that he would forget what God corrected him about?
There are too many examples of this to be exhaustive, so, let’s just start with this example:
But then back to this...
I look at scripture and I see this about how a true prophet’s words never fall to the ground:
1 Samuel 3:19-20 (KJV)
Note here how God’s Word tells us that NONE OF SAMUEL’S WORDS FELL TO THE GROUND, AND SAMUEL WAS ESTABLISHED AS A PROPHET BECAUSE OF THAT VERY THING.
Here’s another example of where what Branham taught was “corrected” and then he taught something else again (this one you’ll like, you mentioned this earlier, the TRINITY:
But he must have gotten correction from God...
Then did God change His mind back again?
Again, this isn’t an exhaustive review of instances where Branham taught one thing, then God apparently corrected him and he taught it differently, then he returned to his original teaching again. There are lots more that I could show you, but this is a pretty limited medium, this email. So, let’s stick to these few examples.
Progressive revelation? Not according to scripture. According to God’s Word, NO WORDS THAT A TRUE PROPHET SPEAKS WILL BE ALLOWED TO FALL TO THE GROUND. And yet we see Branham speaking where he has a dispensation, heretofore unheard of and unknown, where he gets the chance to speak in the Name of the Lord, with God’s Own Authority, and what he teaches does not align with scripture, especially after he goes back to teaching what he taught originally. That’s quite a dispensation. Can you please show me in scripture where this is true of prophets of God?
You mentioned that you resent that we would have the agenda of destroying someone’s ministry who brought “millions” (really? Millions?) to Christ. The number being dubious is not nearly the issue. The issue with your statement is what we continue to repeat for your edification. If Branham had presented himself as a mere preacher, minister, or even evangelist, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The fact is that Branham presented himself as the “LAST SIGN”, the “FINAL MESSENGER”, the “ELIJAH” who would forerun the second coming of Christ. And that mantel carries a different burden with different examination. As we see in God’s Word when Samuel was given God’s Word, a true prophet NEVER teaches that which does not align with the Lord.
Speaking of the number “millions”… what happened to “few” as you mentioned in this and earlier emails??
Can you imagine for a moment how confusing it would have been in Old Testament times if a prophet of God would teach something to God’s People, but the people had to figure out if it was REALLY GOD’S WORD, or had God had an opportunity to “correct” the prophet?
Branham even spoke about “updating his prophecies”! How does that work? God gave me a prophecy, but I have to change it so… ignore that one, I’ll update it???
Wow… updating the Word of God given to a prophet to present to God’s People. Unbelievable.
I will tell you that we disagree with your assessment about the prophets of the old testament and their veracity. The one I would like to address is Jonah.
Jonah was given a prophecy from the Lord God. Now, the issue with Jonah is NOT that God forestalled his judgement which made it so Jonah’s prophecy of judgement against Nineveh did not come to pass as a result of their repentance. The issue with Jonah is that the Lord gave Jonah a prophecy that HE WOULD DELIVER TO NINEVEH. Jonah did everything in his power to avoid that prophecy. But, as we see, when God gives a message to a TRUE prophet, nothing in all the world will stop the prophet from actually delivering the message. Now, what God does after the message is delivered and the prophet has discharged his responsibility to God is up to God… He is, after all, a Sovereign God and He will as He will. Let’s compare that with William Branham… let’s look at his South Africa vision where God told him, and he proclaimed it throughout his ministry using THUS SAITH THE LORD that this meeting would take place. Do you think honestly for a moment that if the Lord God had wanted Branham to go to South Africa anything on this earth would have prohibited his going to deliver God’s message? And yet even Branham admitted that this didn’t occur.
We take very seriously the charges which we make against Branham. You may use not very veiled threats about judgement against me if you wish. But what I know from reading God’s Word is that we are to examine a prophet against God’s Word. We are to make sure that what a prophet proclaims as a vision of God actually comes to pass. We see in Branham that this isn’t true, even by Branham’s own admission. We are to make sure that what a prophet of God teaches aligns with God’s Word. In this email, I have shown you JUST TWO OF MANY examples of where what Branham taught was changed (you would say God corrected him), but then he returned to teaching it the old way as if God changed His mind, or as if Branham would forget God’s correction.
You suggest that “progressive revelation” is just the way of things. And I showed you in God’s Word where NO WORDS OF A TRUE PROPHET WILL FALL TO THE GROUND. That’s the way God demonstrated that a prophet REALLY WAS OF GOD!
We don’t hate William Branham. We just happen to know that according to God’s Word he isn’t a prophet of God. Minister? Not mine, but I’ll buy in to that. Evangelist? OK, the case can be made for that. Teacher? Well, not a good one as he sowed confusion by changing his position, GOD’S POSITION WHEN HE SPOKE WITH GOD’S AUTHORITY, from time to time.
1 Corinthians 14:6-9 (HCSB)
I await your response.
BM2 - Saturday, February 9, 2019 9:51 AM
You said >>>>>>>So far, your excuses for failed visions have been faulty math, a witness whose math is just as faulty, ignoring the key issues of the vision (16 men falling into the water and drowning as Branham said versus alternative theories), and speaking about Branham progressing in his maturity and walk with God. By the way, the last excuse offered is what I will be referring to as “progressive revelation”. Or you haven’t bothered to offer any refutation of what Branham said at all (correctly because what he says in many cases is totally indefensible).
I say.......Excuses????? That's a cop out term you're using..... in order to divert from the FACTS...that we have presented. Show me where we have used faulty math! We take the same Vision you twisted with faulty math and place it the way that GOD had in mind and presto....it fits in every way.
You are so full of diversive accusations and not one shred of evidence...to back up your CNN style of discussion. Not once have I presented any THEORIES.....but in looking into your hate William Branham agenda...I see it is chocked full of.... IF this is so's.....followed by your own opinions. You might lead silly women who are lusting after the world....into your well of deception and open spiritual borders policy...but you aren't dealing with such here.
I am a living witness and have spoken over many many years and sat at length with other witnesses.... when they were alive. Their witness along with mine...is 180 degrees from your non witness position. YOU ARE NOT A WITNESS...just a bench quarterback..or a myopic T.V.critic.
As I see it Brother.... from reading this present response...you never were taught the MESSAGE. I don't see it as a possibility..... as I read your totally confused twist on Brother Branham's use of the word... TRINITY!
A child in our Assembly understands that the word "TRINITY" is not in the Bible...but they also well understand that the word "TRINITY" ....can be applied in multiple ways. A human....by Scriptural consideration....is a "TRINITY".....made up of BODY....SPIRIT and SOUL! GOD expresses Himself...in a broad sense as a "TRINITY".... of FATHER....SON and HOLY GHOST. There are manifold sub manifestations under each title...such as Seven Spirits...Seven Eyes....Seven Horns...under the Sonship dispensation of manifestation. The concept comes under the title.... called MODALISM.....ONE PERSON...many attributes.
The Denominational TRINITY concept.....doesn't necessarily deny all of the attributes and manifestations...they just TEACH.... that there are 3 SEPARATE PERSONS....CO ETERNAL and CO EQUAL....sharing those said attributes. PURE DEMONIC HEATHENISM!!!! It can be historically traced to pre Babylon son of Cain...Nimrod!
So... GOD is a TRINITY in titled overall manifestations...but SINGLE in PERSON...ONE GOD! Anyone who has the slightest inkling of Brother Branham's teaching on the subject...has sense enough to know ....that he wasn't contradicting himself in any way....by saying that GOD is a TRINITY!!!! I have a difficult time wrapping my mind around such ignorant accusations.
BTS2 - Saturday, February 9, 2019, 11:47:36 AM
So, I want to be sure I understand… William Branham didn’t say those things? William Branham didn’t first teach the Trinity, then he called the Trinity of Satan, then from what you just told me, Branham didn’t use the word Trinity here to describe God’s nature:
I want to be sure that I understand your position. If it wasn’t William Branham who said those words, then who was it?
Your assertion is this:
I want to make sure I highlight and understand this… Branham said this:
And in your response, you are suggesting that there are multiple ways of using the word? Awesome… it’s kind of like nailing Jello to a wall. Even when Branham is clear and unequivocal in his sermons you decide that he didn’t contradict himself by saying exactly the opposite of what he previously said.
And I notice you didn’t mention the first example, Branham speaking about “the Africa campaign”.
Our problem is not that we DON’T know the message, our problem is that we know it, and we discovered that what is actually in the message does not align with scripture. We know the message enough to understand that the visions and prophecies which Branham spoke did not come to pass, despite your math. And we know the scripture enough to know that Branham lied in the Name of the Lord.
And while you selectively did not address Branham teaching throughout his ministry that Enoch and Noah were on the earth preaching at the same time which directly opposes what God’s Word tells us, let’s move forward… we stopped at 1st and 2nd Samuel in our discussion of books in the Bible with which Branham did not agree.
What about Branham’s views about women adorning themselves with jewels and fine clothing? Didn’t he call them “Jezebels”?
Here’s what Branham tells us:
It’s clear from what Branham taught that Elijah had confronted Jezebel several times. But is that true? What does the Bible say?
1 Kings 19:1-4 (HCSB)
It is clear that Elijah RAN from Jezebel, but did he ever meet her face to face?
Get rid of 1 Kings.
And what of Branham’s assertion that Jezebel was a harlot and a prostitute? Was she fed to the dogs for painting her eyes and adorning her head? Here’s what the Bible says:
2 Kings 9:30-37 (HCSB)
Do we think perhaps it was Ba’al worship and idolatry which condemned Jezebel as the Bible says? Or was it that she painted her eyes and adorned her head as Branham asserts?
2 Kings is a goner as well.
Remember that Branham spoke of women badly for adorning themselves with jewelry and fine clothing?
What does the Bible actually say? Here’s a passage in the Bible where God Himself tells us through His prophet Ezekiel about adorning women with fine clothing and jewelry:
Ezekiel 16:1-14 (HCSB)
As with the misguided story which Branham told of Jezebel, was the Lord angry because of the fine clothes and jewelry? Or was He correctly angry because women turn from God in pride?
The book of Ezekiel will have to go! Snip snip snip… what a thin book the Bible becomes when you eliminate the books with which Branham disagrees.
We see a lot of things which Branham taught that mis-used scripture throughout his ministry. And a sure indicator scripturally of a false prophet is teaching that which does not align with scripture.
So, did Branham displace the Bible? Do his words supersede the very Word of God?
We do what the Bible tells us we should do:
Acts 17:11 (HCSB)
It will at least be entertaining to see your next reply.
BM2 - Wednesday, February 13, 2019 9:53 AM
You asked >>>>So, I want to be sure I understand… William Branham didn’t say those things? William Branham didn’t first teach the Trinity, then he called the Trinity of Satan, then from what you just told me, Branham didn’t use the word Trinity here to describe God’s nature:
And in your response, you are suggesting that there are multiple ways of using the word? Awesome… it’s kind of like nailing Jello to a wall. Even when Branham is clear and unequivocal in his sermons you decide that he didn’t contradict himself by saying exactly the opposite of what he previously said.
I say....I never even intimated that Brother Branham didn't say what was placed on the quotes. I do say that you are severely lacking in comprehension. I explained in detail...that GOD is a Triune being....a Trinity if you please....but He IS NOT THREE PERSONS. Using the word "TRINITY" ... to make Him 3 Persons is heathen and blasphemous. Using the same word to describe 3 attributes of ONE PERSON..... is a completely different application....Kemo Savvy???? SAME WORD....DIFFERENT APPLICATION! Brother Branham NEVER taught the TRINITY.....of GOD being 3 Persons. Once again...in case you haven't understood me......The Trinity ....as taught by the Trinitarian church systems..... is the word Trinity.... applied to and being 3 Persons !!!!!
You said >>>>And I notice you didn’t mention the first example, Branham speaking about “the Africa campaign”.
I say......I did previously refer to the yet unfulfilled Visions and explained it in the most simple of terms. They WILL be fulfilled in the time and season....that GOD had in mind for them to be fulfilled in. No different .....than over 75% of Bible prophecy/Visions of the Prophets of the Old Testament and the prophecies of the New Testament...are yet to come to pass.
You said >>>>It’s clear from what Branham taught that Elijah had confronted Jezebel several times. But is that true? What does the Bible say?
I say.....William Branham didn't say that Elijah met with Jezebel face to face. You sure spin things to fit your twist. Elijah spoke/preached.... against the condition of the times...that Jezebel's influence had brought the Nation of Israel to. Obviously by recorded Scripture.... she had heard that Elijah had condemned her.... for her acts against the Laws of GOD. Your reference to Ezekiel 16:1-14..... as an excuse for your women to look like someone.... who went through a jewelry store with a magnet on.... is ludicrous. It is an analogy pertaining to the city of Jerusalem. It most certainly IS NOT A GOD GIVEN LICENSE..... for women to dress in Canaanite immodesty. Jezebel dressed and painted her face in the tradition of her heathen identification.Surely you aren't that ignorant of the Scriptural teachings by Paul and Peter ...pertaining to modest apparel and fancy adornings. You sure go to some low lifestyle spins...to justify your hate agenda for William Branham! He didn't invent Holiness....GOD DID!
To use your twisted spin on how women should dress by referring to Jerusalem and then try to make it the will of GOD...shows me that somewhere..... you have really gotten off of the path of Holiness. Of course you couldn't stand for Bible Holiness...since the women of your so called freedom from William Branham...wouldn't let you do so....without putting their foot down on your neck. Evidently you have only searched the Scriptures .....that you want to hear.
1 Tim. 2:9
1 Peter 3:1
BTS2 - Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 10:48 AM
Since we don’t have an assembly, since we aren’t a church, it would be at best difficult for anyone to place their foot on my neck. Again, we don’t have a group. You’ll understand that over time I trust.
And I have a full understanding of modesty of women, and revere it. But there is nothing in the scripture which you present which tells me that women in the message should wear only skirts and dresses of a certain length, only that their dress should be modest. There is nothing which you have provided which tells me why makeup is unholy. There is nothing which you have presented which speaks to the length of sleeves, etc. Branham added his judgement (notice I didn’t say he offered scriptural reference, I said he judged) to scripture. At best what he suggested is extra-scriptural. At worst it is anti-scriptural. And, I agree that modesty is of first importance. And when God clothed Israel, there was nothing immodest about the things which were described in scripture. God did not punish Jezebel because she dressed immodestly, despite what William Branham asserted. Jezebel was destroyed because of her idol worship. And you suggest that I twist scripture?
But we move along.
To this point, you have steadfastly refused to speak about how in scripture a prophet actually qualifies as a prophet of God. And this point is important.
But I wanted to pause our discussion about books of the Bible where Branham disagrees with scripture in plain writing, or where he teaches that which is not scriptural (I promise we will return to that). I want to take the examination of a prophet from another perspective. I want to be clear… we know scripturally why the people which I am about to list ARE NOT TRUE PROPHETS OF GOD. So, let there be no confusion about that.
As you and I engage in this discussion, you haven’t put forth anything which helps me to understand why Branham in your view ACTUALLY QUALIFIES SCRIPTURALLY as a prophet, other than a revelation which you have that confirms it for you personally and your personal experience.
Here is a list of people who claim to be prophets. Some of these people are actually from the message of William Branham who claim that Branham was not the “last” prophet messenger, and who actually call their ministries “Capstone” ministries. On the list, the first four are “message” ministers who claim that they now are the “final” prophet messenger as Branham claimed. But each and every one of these people have a congregation of people who claim that they too have a “revelation” and have had personal experiences, and that these people are indeed prophets of God:
Local Christian Assembly Church
Present Truth Ministry
Full Gospel Christian Assembly
Jehovah's Witnesses "Charles Taze Russell
Seventh Day Adventist
Church of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon)
Ramtha's School of Enlightenment
Builders of Adytum
Church Universal and Triumphant
House of Yahweh
Church of Bible Understanding
Since you are having difficulty telling us how a prophet of God qualifies scripturally, could you please enlighten us… tell us how these people scripturally do not? Remember, they each have a congregation which will tell you that they have a “revelation” that these people ARE true prophets sent by God. Many in their assemblies knew these prophets personally and saw many great works and wonders. Maybe if we could understand how these people ARE NOT prophets, it would help us understand how Branham IS one.